How could a good God allow things like 9/11?
I am a member of a fanartist mailing group, and in the wake of the attack on September 11, 2001, many sent messages of sympathy and comfort. One particular mail enraged another member of the list, who seemed to be bitter and angry about the whole thing, and he attacked the girl who sent the message, and all religious people on the list. I was angered by his unthinking rudeness, and this is the debate that resulted:
NOTE: Quotes from the current message appear in red. Quotes from the immediately prior message appear in green. And quotes from a message two steps back appear in blue.
Message 1:
From: Shiryu To: anime fanartists mailing list
Subject: Re:[anime_fanartists_online] Re: the 'bombing'
< well, i might as well say my symphatize to you all,and sorry for the
< late notification... not that i don't care, but i just can't post the
< message till this time
< Anyway, what i want to say is... that you all can make it.
< Accept this as a test from the Almighty one... And know the fact that
< He never give a test that can not be done by us all...
<
< Anyway, i can really understand that this is really hard to be
< accepted, so rough and bitter as a reality, but what has happened,
< may as well just happened.
< You can not do anything against what is done, for u must look to the
< future.
< I think we should all pray together and raise our hand to Him, so
< that he may bless us all to get through this all.
Save your prayers for the Godexist mailing list please. you're
in the wrong place. Observe please the name of this mailing list.
Anime fanartists online. Besides, they make me sick.
An omnibenevolent God?? don't you tell me???
would have you avoided the occured to the WTC in case
you were able to, in case you had the power to???
I bet you would have, and therefor, your are more benevolent
than God is. If there's One.
And what test are you talking about??? Nothing does He need
to test, or find out about anyone according to His all-knowing
characteristica.
He knows everything. Why the hell would He need this kind of tests for??
would he be toying with us as a naughty boy does with his lead soldiers??
Would a God like this be worth our love anyway??
Pray and rise our hands to Him?? Humanity has been praying
and rising its hands since its own beginning, and however,
nothing has kept it away from this kind of disasters.
i wonder....isn't it time to do something for yourself, and stop
expecting a who-knows-if-it-exists God solve your troubles??
my regards, Shiryu.
Message 2:
From: Jess Door To: anime_fanartists mailing list
Subject: Re:[anime_fanartists_online] Re: the 'bombing'
< Save your prayers for the Godexist mailing list please. you're
< in the wrong place. Observe please the name of this mailing list.
< Anime fanartists online.
Yes, please observe. It doesn't say [I hate God and don't think he exists]
list either.
< Besides, they make me sick.
I don't think it's the people that believe in God that makes you sick, so
much as the horror, shock, and helplessness inspired by recent events.
< An omnibenevolent God?? don't you tell me???
< would have you avoided the occured to the WTC in case
< you were able to, in case you had the power to???
< I bet you would have, and therefor, your are more benevolent
< than God is. If there's One.
I apologize to the list for replying to the rest of this post. I promise
that I will not continue this on the list past this post, but I believe I
have a responsibility to defend my faith, and the faith of so many others at
least once, publicly.
I cannot speak for other faiths, as I am not as well versed in them as a
practitioner would be, but I can answer this from a Protestant Christian
point of view...I think in many ways it coincides with other denominations
and faiths. We believe that God is benevolent, yes, but we also believe he
gave us a great gift...and a great responsibility...Free will.
Free will allows things like this to happen. God could have created us as
organic clockwork toys, ticking to a prescribed beat, performing only
actions he commands us to perform. Instead, he gave us free will, and the
ability to make choices. This means that all the good we strive for can be
counted to us as righteousness. If we had no free will, there would, in one
sense, be no such thing as a good person, because we would simply be unable
to do anything other than what God forced on us. This also means, however,
that when we do evil, or allow evil to cow us into apathy, this is counted
toward us as sinfulness deserving punishment and damnation. These
terrorists had a choice, as we all do. They chose evil, death, and
destruction. This horrible act was made even more egregious because they
used God's name in vain, claiming his blessing on such acts. I'm sure any
Muslim members of our group will confirm that this is not a valid part of
their beliefs as found in the Koran.
Of course, at a time like this, even those with a firm and abiding faith
have doubts, questions, and blame they want to throw around, and a lot of it
flies in God's direction. As a Christian I have to have faith that God had
a reason he didn't create freak lightning bolts to take out those hijackers
before they boarded the plane. We can speculate on reasons all day, from
"We needed the wake-up call this gave us as a nation" to "It was horrible,
but look at all the unity growing in our nation because of this, at the
outpouring of bravery, sacrifice, and love from people all over the nation
and the world", but we can't KNOW. This is where, as Billy Graham said at
the service yesterday, faith comes in.
< And what test are you talking about??? Nothing does He need
< to test, or find out about anyone according to His all-knowing
< characteristica.
< He knows everything. Why the hell would He need this kind of tests for??
< would he be toying with us as a naughty boy does with his lead soldiers??
< Would a God like this be worth our love anyway??
Everything is a test. How will we react in any given situation? Will we
choose righteousness and goodness, sacrificing for our fellow man when he
needs help, working to stamp out evil in all its forms, in ourselves and
others? Or will we choose apathy? Or outright evil? In this, every
moment of our life is a test, of our resolve to be good people. As I've
said, I don't know why these things happened, but look at all the bravery,
courage, sacrifice, generosity, and love this has brought to the fore in our
country...the good thing about overwhelming tragedy like this is it breaks
through the apathy that seems to grow during rich, easy times, and makes
people stand up in protest to evil and reach down deep for the strength to
fight it.
< Pray and rise our hands to Him?? Humanity has been praying
< and rising its hands since its own beginning, and however,
< nothing has kept it away from this kind of disasters.
Of course not...because while many people have been raising their hands in
praise and prayer to God, many others have raised it in violence against
their fellow man. We bring about many of our tragedies, as humans.
< i wonder....isn't it time to do something for yourself, and stop
< expecting a who-knows-if-it-exists God solve your troubles??
Ah, I don't know, of course, but I doubt the previous poster meant to imply
that we should sit on our hands and impotently wait for God to pick
everything up for us. Free will gives us the responsibility of working to
improve our lives, and the lives of others. Prayer is not only a way to
request the help, blessing and care of God, but it is also how we can focus
on what needs to be done and what we still have to be grateful for. It can
give us strength and resolve to do the right thing.
I realize many people are hurting right now. I understand that many are
angry, frustrated, and sad about the recent attack on America. I know for
sure I am. I am living in Japan right now, and wish desperately I had the
money to return home and be with family, friends, and my fellow countrymen.
I feel, irrational as it may be, that I am somehow betraying my county by
being away at a time like this. All these emotions are roiling through all
of us right now. For the atheist and agnostic it must be even worse...those
with faith at least have a hope of ultimate justice, of rest, peace, and
paradise for those lost, and a source of strength to draw from even when we
feel overwhelmed. It must be difficult to believe the world is random, that
there is no ultimate justice, and that there is only this brief, imperfect
life, often peppered with great sorrow and difficulty and injustice, before
we disappear off the face of the earth.
I am sorry you don't have the comfort of faith in a difficult time like
this. But please, in your grief and pain, don't try to take it away from
others.
I apologize again to the list for this off-topic post. I will not bring
this up on the list again. Please, feel free to write me privately if
anyone feels a need to extend this conversation.
I cannot express enough sorrow and sympathy for those who lost loved ones
and friends. I can say that everyone in the nation...and many, many more
around the world mourn with you.
God bless.
-Jess Door
Message 3:
From: Shiryu To: anime_fanartists mailing list
Subject: [anime_fanartists_online]Re:the 'bombing'
<Yes, please observe. It doesn't say [I hate God and don't think he
<exists]list either.
I never said i hate God or such. Read my post again.
I just can't hate something i don't believe in, which doesn't mean
i strictly deny its existence. I just don't believe in God,
cause nothing determinating has He done to prove to us His own
existence.
<We believe that God is benevolent, yes, but we also believe he
<gave us a great gift...and a great responsibility...Free will.
<Free will allows things like this to happen. God could have created
<us as organic clockwork toys, ticking to a prescribed beat,
<performing only actions he commands us to perform. Instead, he gave
<us free will, and the ability to make choices. This means that all
<the good we strive for can be counted to us as righteousness. If we
<had no free will, there would, in one sense, be no such thing as a
<good person, because we would simply be unable to do anything other
<than what God forced on us. This also means, however, that when we do
<evil, or allow evil to cow us into apathy, this is counted toward us
<as sinfulness deserving punishment and damnation. These
<terrorists had a choice, as we all do. They chose evil, death, and
<destruction. This horrible act was made even more egregious because
<they used God's name in vain, claiming his blessing on such acts.
<I'm sure any Muslim members of our group will confirm that this is
<not a valid part of their beliefs as found in the Koran.
This big bunch of nonesenses tell me only one thing:
you have never heard about something called 'determinism'.
biological determinism, psychological determinism, sociological
determinism. Well, determinism is a philosphical movement that
asserts that 'free will' does NOT exist. I mean, man actions
are determined by factors away from himself, as his social
enviroment, his education, his genes, etc...
This all means that when you think you're making a choice,
you are NOT actually, but that thing you think it's your choice
it's just the result of thousand factors working for that
that choice to be taken. Therefore, we aren't other than
"organic clockwork toys, ticking to a prescribed beat" as you
well called us.
<Everything is a test. How will we react in any given situation?
<Will we choose righteousness and goodness, sacrificing for our fellow
<man when he needs help, working to stamp out evil in all its forms,
<in ourselves and others? Or will we choose apathy? Or outright
<evil? In this, every moment of our life is a test, of our resolve
<to be good people. As I've said, I don't know why these things
<happened, but look at all the bravery, courage, sacrifice,
<generosity, and love this has brought to the fore in our
<country...the good thing about overwhelming tragedy like this is it
<breaks through the apathy that seems to grow during rich, easy times,
<and makes people stand up in protest to evil and reach down deep for
<the strength to fight it.
Wha???? this all does no more than ignore the all-knowing
characteristica of God, if He was to exist.
He does NOT need to test ANYTHING AT ALL cause He already knows
EVERYTHING. He's supposed to be All-knowing, omniscient.
He's supposed to know every single fact about past, present and
future. He has no need to test our behaviours at all.
What's the need in making us suffer so hard and die in
earthquakes, fires, terrorist attacks and all that stuff?
There's for Him NO NEED AT ALL. All I can think of is,
if God is to exist, he does really enjoy witnessing our suffering.
Our suffering is what He really wishes, as nothing escapes
from God's will.
<I am sorry you don't have the comfort of faith in a difficult time
<like this. But please, in your grief and pain, don't try to take it
<away from others.
I may not have the comfort of faith, given that according to
the word definition, 'faith' means to believe in something
without any evidence on it or even before contradictory evidence.
On faith's side you can believe anything you propose yourself to.
On faith's side you can convince yourself of the existence
of fairy tales in your garden or a pink elephant inside your closet.
On faith's side you can convince yourself about anything you want
to believe in, just name it.
Where's the real comfort knowing you may be only fooling yourself??
I'd rather have the comfort on rationality which is more safe
and mentally healthier.
And sorry for the godexist debates. It won't happen again.
Not from my own part at least. I promise. Let's forget
that man once believed in a mythological creature, and let's
enjoy this marvelous japanese creations that's the manga/anime world.
Regards, Shiryu...
Message 4:
From: Jess Door To: Shiryu
Subject: Re: [anime_fanartists_online] Re: the 'bombing'
< I never said i hate God or such. Read my post again.
< I just can't hate something i don't believe in, which doesn't mean
< i strictly deny its existence. I just don't believe in God,
< cause nothing determinating has He done to prove to us His own
< existence.
Well, let me just say that the way you attack people who are only expressing
good wishes, albeit in a way that supposes the existence of something you
don't believe in, in such a venomous way makes it appear hateful to those of
us who do believe in God.
< This big bunch of nonesenses tell me only one thing:
< you have never heard about something called 'determinism'.
< biological determinism, psychological determinism, sociological
< determinism. Well, determinism is a philosphical movement that
< asserts that 'free will' does NOT exist. I mean, man actions
< are determined by factors away from himself, as his social
< enviroment, his education, his genes, etc...
< This all means that when you think you're making a choice,
< you are NOT actually, but that thing you think it's your choice
< it's just the result of thousand factors working for that
< that choice to be taken. Therefore, we aren't other than
< "organic clockwork toys, ticking to a prescribed beat" as you
< well called us.
Okay, well, if you want to try that particular system of belief (that's what
it is, you realize, determinism has actually been scientifically disproven,
while God has not), that's been disproven already too, by chaos theory. In
sufficiently large systems, determinism is impossible. Before chaos theory
was discovered, many people believed in the clockwork world theory,
actually, and thought that once physicists discovered the theory of
everything (presumably M-theory, more commonly known as string theory, which
gets rid of the contradictions between general relativity and quantum
mechanics) we could, if given enough knowledge of any given system,
determine the outcome of any event in the said system.
BUT, chaos theory threw a serious wrench in that. Given a large enough,
complex enough system, determinism doesn't work, because the reactions and
interactions are not only too complicated for computer nowadays to handle the
necessary computations, but it has been shown that even given infinitely
capable computers, we would be unable to calculate the outcome. And trust
me, even a single human being's body is complicated enough to invoke chaos
theory, let alone a society of such beings.
If this weren't enough to completely disprove determinism, there's also the
Heizenberg uncertainty principle. In physics, in quantum mechanics, the
Heizenberg uncertainty principle states that you can never know enough
information to determine exactly both the velocity and location of any
subatomic particle. In fact, the more exactly you pinpoint the velocity of
an electron, the less you can know about the location, and the more exactly
you measure the location, the less exactly you can know the velocity. Which
means, subatomic physics is completely based on probability. Now, if
something as simple and basic as subatomic particle movement is completely
indeterminable, how in the world can you hope to apply determinism to
infinitely more complex systems, such as a single human being, let alone
human societies?
Do you study science at all?
Determinism has to be one of the most horrible theories of life. If what
you state were true, we couldn't punish these terrorists, because they
weren't at fault for their actions....the circumstances that surrounded them
were. And the rescuers that are working to save people deserve no praise or
admiration...because they are not choosing to put their lives in danger in
the hope of saving just one life, they are forced to do it. there is no
good or evil. So anyone who does evil cannot be punished, and anyone who
does good can not be praised or lifted up as a role model. Do you really
believe this? Do you really think any sane society can be governed by such
a system of beliefs?!?
< Wha???? this all does no more than ignore the all-knowing
< characteristica of God, if He was to exist.
< He does NOT need to test ANYTHING AT ALL cause He already knows
< EVERYTHING. He's supposed to be All-knowing, omniscient.
< He's supposed to know every single fact about past, present and
< future. He has no need to test our behaviours at all.
< What's the need in making us suffer so hard and die in
< earthquakes, fires, terrorist attacks and all that stuff?
< There's for Him NO NEED AT ALL. All I can think of is,
< if God is to exist, he does really enjoy witnessing our suffering.
< Our suffering is what He really wishes, as nothing escapes
< from God's will.
First off, he DOESN'T make us suffer. He allows us to endure suffering that
is incurred by ourselves and other human beings.
Second, he may know what will happen in the future, but because of free
will, he doesn't cause it. Thus, he allows tragedies, and horrible things
to happen to allow us to have a chance to rise above them. He doesn't allow
these things to happen because he's curious to see how we turn out...that
would be cruel and beneath him. Rather, he allows them to happen in order
to give us a chance to improve ourselves. Christians believe that all we
deserve from God, for the sins we've committed, is death and suffering.
Now, those things definitely exist here, but there are also wonderful
things, such as love, birth, warm, lazy summer days, generosity and bravery.
These are blessings as well as tragedies. He doesn't prevent our own
foolishness and evil. He wants us to obey his laws, and live happy lives.
But, because we still disobey him, and sin and do evil, we live with effects
of that evil, including tragedies such as happened last Tuesday. You keep
harping on how a benevolent God couldn't allow evil to happen...but a just
God-and he is just-can't allow evil to go unpunished. These tragedies are
simply the consequence of our collective sins as humankind. Not any
particular sin, not any particular person or nation's sin, it's just a
consequence of the sinful state of the world.
< <I am sorry you don't have the comfort of faith in a difficult time
< <like this. But please, in your grief and pain, don't try to take it
< <away from others.
< I may not have the comfort of faith, given that according to
< the word definition, 'faith' means to believe in something
< without any evidence on it or even before contradictory evidence.
< On faith's side you can believe anything you propose yourself to.
< On faith's side you can convince yourself of the existence
< of fairy tales in your garden or a pink elephant inside your closet.
< On faith's side you can convince yourself about anything you want
< to believe in, just name it.
< Where's the real comfort knowing you may be only fooling yourself??
< I'd rather have the comfort on rationality which is more safe
< and mentally healthier.
God has not been proven to exist. I personally believe he will never be
proven to exist until death answers all your questions, because he requires
faith. He has not been disproven by any stretch of the word, and, again, I
believe he never will be. Of course faith is belief in something
unprovable. It's the definition of the word. God requires such faith
because of our sin and rejection of him, such as your rejection now. Sin
causes this hatred of God, because anyone who does wrong and is punished as
a consequence hates the one who brings justice. As I said, many of us have
faith in a God of judgment and mercy. And, as I said, it brings us
comfort, strength, determination, and a desire and reason to do good and
avoid evil. Don't try to mock or cause pain to people who have it. What
good does it do you? And what harm does it do to others? Why would you go
out of your way to cause pain or distress to people? What possible use is
that? I don't understand why you are being so hateful...
< And sorry for the godexist debates. It won't happen again.
< Not from my own part at least. I promise. Let's forget
< that man once believed in a mythological creature, and let's
< enjoy this marvelous japanese creations that's the manga/anime world.
Why would you enjoy anime? Don't a lot of them have mythological creatures
or gods or religion? They're not rational. They're not real. By your
supposed view of the world proposed above, there is no use in these things.
Give it up, it does no one any good, the stories aren't true, the people
aren't real, they have no value.
We should, by extension, give up all stories, enjoyment in make-believe
worlds, and assume that anything that hasn't been scientifically proven is
impossible.
What a horrible world.
Why don't you stop attacking Christians? Again, what good does it do? We
are a free country, we are allowed to believe in anything we want. The
people who attack religious people and want to halt all their beliefs are
Nazis, communists, and Muslims like the ones who blew up the trade center,
who wanted people to be punished if they believed differently. I'm sure you
wouldn't want to be considered like them, would you? We are not harming
you. Why are you trying to suppress us?
-Jessica Door
Comments? Please, e-mail me!
.: jessdoor.com :: personal :: opinions :.
